Author Topic: Current Events  (Read 167966 times)

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Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #435 on: February 23, 2025, 01:14:22 AM »
I do agree with the "one cable to rule them all" due to wastage.
But I see your argument against USB-C. Would Apple have let their cable tech be used for other electronic
items ???? Apple are very controlling about their tech ???
Personally I dont think they went far enough in ensuring one cable for all, Razors (electric) use different cables, speaker bars use another, Laptops (certain brand) use another etc etc.
Which cables I dont care but use one sort 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


Offline TNG

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #436 on: February 23, 2025, 07:21:13 AM »
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Apple moving on forced the rest of the industry to follow (there is a direct line from the original iMac to USB adoption, and USB would possibly still be at USB1 or 2 without firewire and then lightning), and we have all seen that happening, but the EU regulation stops that technological shift from happening.

I disagree with this. The mandate exists to unify power delivery standards. This is certainly convenient for the consumer, and does not stop innovation. I suppose it would block a "technological shift", but I can't imagine what a serial->usb shift would look like for USB-C. It does not block innovation as you can build new charging standards on top of USBC. You just have to be able to fallback to USB PD. Even then, USB PD is highly flexible, and we will see 240w devices coming soon using this. Examples of this include Qualcomms QC spec, and the various fast charging specs from the Chinese phones like Oneplus VOOC and Huawei SCP.


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If the EU had (for example) mandated serial ports on everything for "one cable", then USB couldn't have come to the fore. (A "Kettle lead" mandate would have blocked power over USB) If they had mandated that the "one cable to rule them all" was USB-A, then USB-C couldn't have been introduced to the market. (And for TV where is the "one cable"? There must be more TVs than phones, but the EU haven't mandated that TVs have to have one - and only one - of HDMI/ Display Port/ Thunderbolt/ Ethernet/ Coax/ ...)

The EU isn't locking in a port like serial. USB 1.1 was already orders of magnitude faster than RS-232. They are also inherently different - USB was designed to be a universal connector and abstracted away from the user many configurations steps that RS-232 required. USB-C is the current forefront of technology and doesn't exclude anything. USB-A would have limited speed and not allowed for Thunderbolt or PCIe or video. I don't think that USB-C is blocking anything.

I would also argue that TVs already have a "one cable" solution - HDMI:

  • HDMI supports Ethernet, audio return channels (ARC/eARC), and CEC for device control.
  • It’s on every TV and almost every source device.
  • HDMI and DisplayPort use the same data transfer method, so a simple passive adapter allows HDMI to work with a USB-C device.

Even then, this isn’t the same situation as USB-C for charging:

  • A TV is never going to have just one connection because multiple devices use it.
  • A display signal and an internet connection serve entirely different functions.
  • USB-PD is meant for portable devices that need charging - a TV is neither portable nor chargeable.
  • We already have IEC standards for static high-power devices, which are widely used for safety and compatibility.

USB-C would also be a downgrade for display bandwidth and cable length:

  • HDMI has supported 48Gbps for years, while USB-C is only now approaching that speed.
  • Long HDMI cables already exist, but USB-C struggles beyond a couple of meters at full speed.

I wouldn't mind some intervention in the display cable sector though. HDMI's certification/specification is meaningless, and it would be nice to see DisplayPort adopt some of HDMIs home-theatre type features so we could remove HDMI altogether - it has no real advantage over DisplayPort and requires licensing fees. I would also like to see the advertised supported resolutions for HDMI/DP be clearly marked as using compression or not.

 
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*"standardization and reducing e-waste" seems to be a bit undermined by the simple fact that everyone that had lightning cables has to replace them and throw them away. If the standard had been mandated before lightning become the standard for half of the industry, this is a possibility, but to mandate it to ensure that there are billions of cables forced into obsolescence seems an odd way of reducing e-waste. Of course it couldn't have been mandated before lightning become the standard for half of the industry, because back then the rest of the world had not-standardised on mini-USB, micro-USB, nano-USB and proprietary connectors. Ironically Apple, with Lightning (and to a lesser degree FireWire), forced the rest of the industry to standardise on USB-C. So the EU punished Apple, and reduced the chances of Apple creating/ fostering the next connection standard.

While the immediate transition from Lightning to USB-C would create waste, this mandate is projected to save 11,000 tonnes of e-waste annually, and save €250m in charger purchases. If we are to believe their research, then this mandate appears to be a positive for e-waste. Furthermore, Apple was never going to create a new connection standard. They already knew USB-C was better, they've been using it since 2015 on MacBooks, and iPads more recently. I suspect they originally switched because, as a development partner with Intel, they knew Thunderbolt 3 would be using USB-C, which they released in 2016.

This also means that most Apple users already have a USB-C charger from their Apple laptop or tablet, so the Lightning charger didn't require much resource expenditure to replace. A study found that nearly 60% of Apple users own three or more Apple devices, meaning many already have USB-C chargers, reducing the overall impact of the transition.

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To address this bit in particular.

I don't have as much faith as you do in the lawmakers: I really do think that the EU legislation was a spiteful anti-Apple (probably designed as anti-US) law with little or no technological reasoning. But I may be biased, so to take it at face value:

The trick is noticing that it has become a limitation. Until USB came along, no-one had noticed that serial/ parallel/ RSnnn connectors had become a limitation. Until the iMac had USB and only USB, the rest of the industry had played about with adding a USB connector to devices, but no-one actually made any USB peripherals to connect to them. Thus no-one noticed that USB was miles better (and "standard"), so there would have been no reason to update any putative legislation favouring the status quo.

The iMac forced peripheral makers to make USB peripherals, and the rest of the industry flocked to the "new" standard, but this was only forced because the iMac had no old-style connectors: this sort of thing would be banned by the EU law.

It's easy to see how this mandate looks like a targeted move against Apple or the US, but that overlooks the broader context. The regulation isn't about punishing any specific company - it's about reducing e-waste, improving the consumer experience, and lowering switching costs to make it easier for consumers to change devices while reducing barriers to entry for new competitors. It might seem like this law was aimed at Apple, but it applies universally and ensures that no future company, including Apple, can create similar lock-in again. Apple was the only major holdout against USB-C, and this delay was only so that they could continue to generate revenue off of having a proprietary connector.

The comparison to the iMac's role in standardisation doesn’t really apply here. The iMac replaced a mix of old, inefficient, and bulky standards with USB, which was a clear improvement for the consumer. USB-C is not like a serial port - it's the best we currently have, and it’s still being developed and improved. USB-C has already evolved to support Thunderbolt 5, USB4 v2, and 240W power delivery, proving it is adaptable to future needs. Apple was not going to release a new standard, as they had already adopted USB-C themselves. In fact, reports suggest that Apple was testing USB-C iPhones as early as 2019, before any EU mandate showing that they weren’t developing anything new and already knew USB-C was the best option.

The idea that the iMac's USB-only approach would have been banned by the EU misrepresents what the law actually does. The EU isn't banning new standards, they are only ensuring that all devices capable of wired charging use a universal connector. If a company wants to introduce something new, they can build on top of USB-C or introduce something to co-exist with it, just like how Thunderbolt evolved on USB-C. If Apple truly wanted to innovate, nothing was stopping them from creating something new and demonstrating its advantages before this mandate. Apple just wanted to hold onto Lightning because it made them revenue, like through the Made for I-device program. One (slightly sketchy) website claims they earn over $10b per year by selling cables and charging MFi fees. I don't put too much stock in this number, but it's certainly a revenue stream for them.

The industry is also capable of driving innovation by itself. Apple's FireWire died because they kept it proprietary and charged fees for it. USB quickly improved and became favoured over FireWire, and consequently, we don't have FireWire today.

Ultimately, this law does not prevent innovation - it prevents fragmentation. It ensures that we don't return to having multiple, sometimes proprietary, connections that limit choice and increase waste. If USB-C becomes a limitation, the law can be revised, just like how regulations regarding emissions or power efficiency are updated. USB-C provides a common foundation for everyone to contribute to innovation and progression, rather than companies pulling consumers backward into proprietary ecosystems.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 07:26:50 AM by TNG »

Offline TNG

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #437 on: February 23, 2025, 07:44:50 AM »
A relevant afterthought:

An example of how USB-C is not restricting innovation is Asus's XG port. It combines a PCIe 8x connection with USB-C, so that you can use the USB-C normally, or connect an external GPU using both the USB-C and the PCIe port. I have one on my ROG Ally. This is proprietary though so not so nice.

OneXplayer created a handheld that incorporated an Oculink port though. I read somewhere they had to do some development to make it more robust and suitable outside of the datacenter. This is open source and another example of how you can innovate on device connectivity without having USB-C be a blocker. Other handheld manufacturers have also followed with Oculink ports.

Offline TNG

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #438 on: February 23, 2025, 11:09:49 AM »
I don't really get your argument any more. Why shouldn't have the EU mandated the use of USB-C on devices? You are right that Apple's involvement in progressing USB should not be understated. It could even be said that they have been the driving force behind USB since day one, apart from being a member of the USB consortium from early on. They got it into mainstream adoption first -> they were unhappy with the slow progression of USB -> they made firewire to compete (although firewire development started way before USB and was a group effort) -> USB got faster -> they let firewire die off -> they made lightpoint/thunderbolt -> thunderbolt became a part of USB. They also worked on the USB-C standard.

Despite this, Apple were not changing the port on their own. USB-C is better in every way except perhaps durability, but I have never had a USB-C connection break yet. The mandate made Apple switch, which is good. Outside of Apple, everything has to be USB-C now, which is also good as its's very convenient, and apparently will save the consumer money and reduce e-waste. The only reasons Apple had to retain the Lightning connecter are anti-consumer. Therefore it is a good thing that the EU forced their hand.

We could not have had a mandate like this before USB-C. For example USB-A, even at a modest 10gbps, is too slow to be universal. Video connectors were already around the 20gbps range at the time 10gbps USB was common. Therefore you could see that speeds would increase again soon, and that the 9 pins of USB would likely not be enough to support this. USB was also not physically reliable enough, especially the micro/mini variants, to be enforcing its use so strictly. Now that USB-C has been around a while, and that development has not slowed on this connector, requiring its use would no longer be a negative for innovation, and it is physically good enough for general use. I'm not sure about your point regarding USB 3, since that predated Lightning.

Offline TNG

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #439 on: February 24, 2025, 08:37:21 AM »
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Because it is not their job to mandate restrictions technology: it is their job to ensure the market is open.

It's their job to act in the best interest of the consumer. This policy saves the consumer money and reduces waste. Personally I find it great that I can ask an iPhone user for a charge, and likewise offer them a charge. I would say that this is acting in the interest of the consumer.

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Yes they were - as you note, Apple were using USB-C when it was appropriate, and may well have moved all devices to USB-C under their own steam without legislation.

Then they could have changed the iPhone when they changed their other devices, however they did not. There is a direct financial incentive for them to not adopt USB-C on their phones.

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Rubbish - a primary reason for retaining the Lightning connector was to support the massive installed base that had billions of Lightning compatible devices and cables. "Anti-Apple consumer" may be roughly comparable to "pro-general consumer", but this is not a given.

The large majority of the user base already have USB-C chargers and cables. E-waste is bad if it's needlessly having to be replaced. However in this case its unlikely you had to replace your charger since you already had a USB-C one. I don't see how this is different to them dropping Magsafe on Macs, Lightning on iPads, or removing the headphone jack on phones either, where they had no problem making peripherals useless.

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As has been pointed out, manufacturers like walled gardens, because it maintains the user base, but in Apple world Lightning connectors were a minuscule part of the garden wall. This does appear to be in the EU's remit, though, as if you squint you can see this as assisting the consumer in moving between suppliers.

Walls like this are anti-consumer. Anything that the government can do to remove these walls is pro-consumer. You're right that it was a small part of this wall, but that does not negate the fact that it is still a part of this wall. With enough small steps, Apple may become a respectable company, but by this logic we should just give up. Perhaps next the EU will tell them to stop using serialised parts, promote right to repair, fine them harder for throttling older phones, challenge Apple's app store monopoly, and make them support RCS.

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Yes, we could. It wouldn't have made any technical sense to mandate (for example) standardisation on coax ethernet (which at the time was as fast as could be envisioned) but the idiots in the EU could have mandated it. It would have made just as much sense as mandating a transient connector.

I could not disagree more on this point. Only a few years after the standardisation of thick/thin ethernet was twisted pair in development. There were clear negatives to this technology, such as the shared bus topology meaning one failure could bring down the network, the difficulty of troubleshooting such a network, poor speed scaling with multiple clients, high interference susceptibility, half-duplex communication or the installation difficulty due to the rigid cable. USB-C has no such downsides, and has already seen widespread adoption. Furthermore, during the peak growth of Moore's Law, it was easy to see that data requirements would grow.

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Regardless of its undoubted benefits, USB-C should have been transient - not permanent - because technology moves on. I am surprised that you think that "requiring its use would no longer be a negative for innovation", as for example USB-C is already too thick for ultra-thin devices; no manufacturer is encouraged to invent a thinner connector because it would be illegal to use in the EU. This stifles the invention of thinner devices, through legislative stupidity.

I don't know why you are acting like we are stuck with USB-C until the ends of time. Every standard is transient. If we refused to standardise anything, nothing would have any regulation. In addition, the consumer benefits outweigh the hypothetical future constraints. The mess of proprietary connectors on devices outside of Apple and e-waste are current issues.

There are also devices that are 3.6mm thick utilising USB-C. I think it would be hard to get much thinner regardless of USB-C or not. We aren't forced to use USB-C forever either. It would be perfectly reasonable for a company to bring their case to the EU court and argue for an exemption or propose a new connector.

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I would consider this as an example of kludgy workarounds because of the restriction - by a stupid law - from creating a custom connector that could do a job.

They created this port in 2021, before any restrictions. I prefer this connector over something completely different. I am able to use USB-C to charge and power the device, and if I wanted to use an external graphics unit from Asus, it's nice that it can simultaneously break out the USB-C into more USB ports and provide charging too.

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The whole thing is almost certainly a storm in a teacup, though, as Apple will doubtless move to wholly wireless charging as soon as it becomes feasible, and stuff the damned USB-C connector!

I don't know why you have a personal grudge against USB-C. You are not unhappy with it on the iPad and iMacs, so why is it bad on an iPhone. Nothing stops a new thinner device using wireless charging, and a slimmer port for high speed data.

Offline 6pairsofshoes

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #440 on: February 25, 2025, 04:21:02 PM »
The area where I currently live (but am in the process of moving away from) is near Silicon Valley so there's an abundance of used tech stuff around here and when I say abundance, I mean, people give stuff away like 2015 MacBook pros on the Freecycle/BuyNothing groups.  What is more common is the preponderance of requests for things like charging cords and dongles that translate from one format to another.  Recently, in an effort to help my husband get an additional dongle to help him translate from lightning connector to USB-C for the purposes of transferring data or charging various devices.   I requested one and of course, someone in Berkeley kindly obliged. Of course these devices look similar in photographs to other sorts, so what I brought home was not the desired dongle, but instead was a Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter.  Apple wants about $50 US for one of these.  I'm scratching my head in an effort to figure out if I can even use it.

The point I'm making here is that there is great potential for all kinds of ewaste generated by the constant desire to upgrade and speed up data transfers and it would be less exhausting and more socially beneficial if there could be some consensus achieved determining how to make these more universal.  I'm all for innovation, but Apple seems particularly egregious in its desire to push the envelope on both functionality and design parameters.

There have been efforts to standardize all kinds of exchange at least since the late 19th century when there were organizations established like the Universal Postal Union in 1874, where an effort was made to enable postage to be sent across national borders to everyone's mutual benefit, and while this was not technically a hardware issue, it does suggest that there is some utility in these kinds of agreements.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

In the meantime, if anyone has any idea what I can do with this adapter other than come up with a creative form of personal adornment or donate it back to the exchange stream from whence it came, I'd appreciate it.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #441 on: February 26, 2025, 08:45:10 AM »
"Apple has historically resisted allowing other companies to use Lightning connectors because it's a proprietary technology that allows them to control the quality and design of accessories, generate revenue through licensing fees from third-party manufacturers who want to make Lightning accessories (through their "MFi" program), and maintain a distinct feature that sets Apple devices apart from other brands; however, due to recent EU regulations, Apple has been forced to switch to USB-C on their iPhones, meaning they can no longer exclusively use Lightning connectors."

It's not a APPLE v ANDROID thing for me, Apple could have allowed their products used by others but did not and earned money through their patents, but chose not to.
I like the idea of one connection for all, (stares into my box full of various cables  :-\ :-\  and dare not throw any away "just in case" ) and have no argument with anyone who uses Apple (all but myself in my household have Apple and I still think Apple Pads are the best).

Offline 6pairsofshoes

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #442 on: February 28, 2025, 08:52:59 AM »
Our President is an bottom who is systematically destroying our government.  Nothing new to report here. There's a "buy nothing" boycott on right now, but I fail to see what it will accomplish.  I need to replace some light switches so I'll go to the hardware store.  Sorry.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #443 on: February 28, 2025, 12:28:15 PM »
After watching the news ref Trump and Zelensky bust up, Now Spain has support declared for Ukraine
  :o :o :o :o
best TV I have watched for ages.

Offline smokester

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #444 on: February 28, 2025, 02:39:43 PM »
After watching the news ref Trump and Zelensky bust up, Now Spain has support declared for Ukraine
  :o :o :o :o
best TV I have watched for ages.

Yes but now the U.K look like hillbillys for buddying up to Trump and his minions.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #445 on: February 28, 2025, 09:21:22 PM »
Yes but now the U.K look like hillbillys for buddying up to Trump and his minions.

Starmer looks like, but I do take your point.
I personally dont know anyone who likes him (even my Extreme Union mates think he's a dck)

Offline 8ullfrog

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Re: Current Events
« Reply #446 on: March 10, 2025, 05:19:22 AM »
Just got a special weather warning "DO NOT GO OUTSIDE".

I noticed when I got up earlier to use the banyo that the sky was red, and it reminded me of that old warning, red sky at morn, sailor be warned.
But I'm not sailing!